Defcee
Aris Theotokatos
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Defcee has grown up in hip-hop; the 31-year-old MC has been recording and performing since he was 14 years old. His years of practice reached a new peak in 2019 with Lacuna and Summer Courses, both produced by knowsthetime, and a series of EPs with fellow rapper CRASHprez. And while he’s pushed himself forward, he’s also given knowledge back to the youth, both as a high school teacher by day and as a frequent teaching artist for Young Chicago Authors.
Each week this month, Defcee has released a new single in order to empty his vaults and tease upcoming projects in a series he calls DROPTOBER. The latest song, “Capital Won” from his forthcoming project with producer Sev Seveer, is out now. I spoke to Defcee on an October Saturday morning before a studio session about Supreme Clientele, the thrill of live cyphers, and sowing the seeds of future rap generations.
It was cool to hear Armand Hammer, billy woods on here, then have the lightbulb go off that “Oh yeah, he’s just putting on one of his peers from the show earlier this year.” What was it like doing the show with him? Do you guys have any relationship?
I met woods about six years ago through some mutual friends here. The first woods verse I heard was “For Madmen Only,” where he says something “Black steel in the hour of layoffs, dude, don’t get it confused like Eldritch Cleaver.” That bar was so crazy, I knew I needed to find more of his stuff. That’s when Lamon and Colossal and Skech put me up on his albums. I was kind of starstruck when I first met woods, like “Damn, your face isn’t pixelated in person?” For as reclusive and mysterious as his public profile is, when you sit down and have a conversation with him, he’s one of the best conversationalists. I always thought if woods and my dad had a conversation about politics, they’d still be talking three days later.
In 2015 PremRock from Wrecking Crew reached out and said “Hey, me, Mo Nickels, Castro, and woods are thinking about doing a tour and wanted to come through Chicago, is that something you’d be able to?” So I reached out to the Burlington in Logan Square, and that was my first headlining show. It was one of the most fun experiences I’ve ever had. After that, woods and I kept in touch, and he reached out to me when he booked the show late last year.
woods is really good people in addition to being a good rapper, and I’m lucky that I get to know him, and it’s been really cool to see the upwards trajectory of his music. This has nothing to do with the quality of his music, but if you had told me in 2013 he would be on TIME’s year-end list, I would have been shocked. It’s like seeing people come around to Ka and Boldy James. When people are not able to put you in a box with the music you make, it becomes more of a job for them to figure out how to discuss your music publicly. To see all these people who are like “You know what, this is the music we always wanted to hear, we always wanted to make, we now have the capacity to make it,” it’s inspiring to me. To see their success and see they’re good guys with day jobs, it’s cool to be in proximity to that.
Do you think there’s a similar scene happening in Chicago specifically?
It’s dope to see Why? Records wear their styles on their sleeves. It’s very difficult to do that kind of music in Chicago because it’s difficult to categorize it. You can hear woods’ influence, other prominent underground acts, but they’re not scared to be themselves, put themselves out there. I think there are a lot of people in Chicago with similar taste. For me it’s been cool to watch that because these dudes are younger than me, making music I probably wanted to make at their age, so there are really no limitations on what I wanna do, and I shouldn’t think so hard about how it’s gonna be received, and I should just put it out. That kinda DIY spirit is them, and it’s definitely Rich. Have you heard his new album with Montana Macks?
Yeah, between that album, the Growing Concerns album, your stuff, Why? Records, feels like there are some connections amongst all that. I don’t know if I could articulate it.
First of all I appreciate that, because you’re putting me in company with a lot of talented musicians. Secondly, I think it’s great you can’t articulate it! The music needs to speak for itself.
I think about Supreme Clientele, and listening to that at 16, 17 years old while everybody was into Dipset, G-Unit, Wayne, and people would quote punchlines and challenge me on who’s better than Ghostface. I couldn’t explain why it’s so great, I didn’t have the language for it yet, but in time I realized I probably appreciated the poetic elements because I was learning to rap at the same time I was learning to write poetry. I think the artists are able to articulate it because we’re nerds about it and always thinking about the craft and how to sharpen it. There’s also an element of great art where you don’t have to explain it. It’s just really cold.
Rich and Why? and Tomorrow Kings and Lamon Manuel and Jean Deaux are all people who make what they wanna make, they’re consistently dope and they make consistently dope music. I’m very lucky to be making music at a time when I’m around so many people who are on the same wavelength.
I’m glad you linked up Davis for the first single this month. How did you get connected with him?
Had to represent Chicago. Davis is one of the best rappers in Chicago right now, hands down. Sllime put me onto Davis! Sent me the Green Parakeet Suite album, and I slept on it for a little, I wasn’t ready for it. Then I met Davis at that show with all the Why? guys and I loved everything they did, so I went back and revisited that album, and thought “Damn, this is really forward thinking for when it came out.” I don’t know if it came out before the Tierra Whack album where she put out the one-minute songs, but I hadn’t heard an album like that before. To hear an entire album that was Davis finding pockets in those beats no one else would find, and he’s rapping over stuff that’s not easy to rap over, and the music is beautiful, and the imagery is vivid - at that point I was like this is somebody I wanna work with and I gotta find the time to make it happen.
Iceberg Theory sent me that beat, and once I heard it I knew this is the joint with Davis. I told Davis I wanted to work with him, and I was thinking of something like “Three,” which is this Prodigy song, where Prodigy has the first sixteen, Cormega comes in on the back, then they’re out. I’m glad it worked out. That song is really dope, and his verse is ridiculous. His bar at the end “I promise the only pain I process from is my own,” one of my favorite bars of the year.
I feel like I’m late to Sllime, I only got familiar in the past year or so. I didn’t know there was a “Sell Coke To White Folks” Part 1 until your playlist.
Sllime has also been sleeping on Sllime forever. Slime’s been a rapper since I’ve known him, for over ten years. There used to be this battle in Chicago called Rhymespitters, and there’s a documentary about it on Youtube, and you can see him in it at age 14. They did a bunch of battles in Wicker Park at clubs. The story he told is that as soon as he got eliminated from the tournament, they kicked him out since he was too young to be there. He’s always been dope but I don’t think he’s always been fully confident that he can put out music people will respond to. “I like this, but does that mean other people will like it?”
Now to see him putting out music on a regular basis and doing more shows where he’s rapping, and to see him fully believe in himself and his craft has been really fun to watch. Part of what’s so fun about working with him, is now that this fool has all this self-belief, he’s trying to get the last verse on every song. That competitive energy creates the best possible music. Sllime is one of my favorite rappers from anywhere, let alone Chicago. To see him becoming other people’s favorite rapper is awesome.
If you think about Allen Iverson, how he played basketball purely off of instinct, what he knew about the game, I think that’s Sllime with the beats. He doesn’t really struggle. He starts making a beat, and if it’s not working, he’ll move onto the next thing. Sometimes he locks in on something crazy, I’ll ask him to send it, and I’ll never get it. [laughs] I know a lot of hard work goes into what he does, but it just comes naturally to him. He’s one of those people that put in his 10,000 hours.
Do you think that’s unique to Chicago, that there are a lot of people who can take their time to put out projects and not feel rushed?
Seven years ago I went to Tulsa, and at the time, the guys there just loved making music and had no preconceived notions about who they were and where they were from. The big difference between that community and the Chicago community is, because this is a major city, there’s always been an additional urgency to break out and be the star. Chicago is the biggest city with the small town vibe, for better and for worse.
There actually is urgency for people to blow up, but there aren’t as many resources. Look, if you wanna use the internet to hustle your music, you can do that. If you want to break into the music industry, you’re gonna have to move or constantly be making trips out of town, because you’re not gonna blow up to the level of the Herbos, the Chances, the Vics from here. Or you can redefine what success looks like for you, which I think a lot of people have come around to accepting. That gets rid of the resentment that’s there towards the successful people, I know I’ve been guilty of that resentment towards younger people who are popping because I was the feature on the open mics they were performing at. You get these bullshit ideas in your mind about where you should be versus where they should be. If you’re a white rapper in Chicago, you have nothing to complain about.
I can always find a show here, which is fucked up when it’s way more difficult for nonwhite rappers in Chicago. I do think a lot of the white gatekeepers in hip-hop tend to put Blackness in boxes, a certain representation is acceptable while another is not. I think people have now been figuring out fuck the gatekeepers, we’re just gonna make the music we wanna make and hustle. This is something Oakland’s known for thirty years, Houston’s known for twenty five years, and I know shit is going crazy in Minneapolis for Rhymesayers with good reason, so I don’t want to be too complimentary, but it’s something Minneapolis figured out in the late ‘90s. The thing that I saw Savemoney do that other people in that age group picked up and ran with is, when everybody was just trying to hustle on the internet in the blog era, those kids were going to different schools and just rapping! They did the pay-to-play shows which we all know are shitty, but they built up that live show culture in Chicago that didn’t really exist if you weren’t 21 and over. That was the seed that was planted, and it’s fully grown now with people understanding that you’ve gotta take full ownership of your music and its direction.
One of the many shitty things about the pandemic is this was going to be a great year for Chicago hip-hop. In terms of the music I still think it is, but in terms of going on the road and spreading the word, we need that to be a mainstay like LA or Atlanta. Oakland, London, LA, and Chicago are the four cities where the most varied, different types of hip-hop are made at a high level. Find any genre, and someone in Chicago is snapping with it. This is the benefit of working in schools, there are kids who are 14 and 15 years old that are crazy, but we have to be honest with the younger kids about the business of hip-hop music and contextualize it within Chicago.
Add-2 understands that really well, and that’s what makes him a good mentor. He works with kids on music that sounds nothing like what he makes, but he makes sure it’s as good as it can possibly be. That’s the attitude the rest of us need to have. That’s how you build community, how you expand community, that’s how you welcome people in and make connections.
That’s what I was thinking about when I was making the playlist. I think the farthest back track is 2017. I’m really excited about Chicago hip-hop, about how my generation is reaching out to the younger generation of rappers. Lord willing, if this planet still exists in five years and this country has not gone to war with itself by then, I think the story of Chicago hip-hop is only going to get richer and more beautiful and expansive with time.
Especially that Pivot Gang tape, I think it’s gonna age like wine. The beats, the guests, the lyrics are so good. I think it’s gonna be a classic on classic for years.
I told ‘em when I heard it! I remember where I was, Frsh was tryna help me get in shape at the Planet Fitness at Forest Park, he tried, he really did. We were in the car talking about the tape. The thing I took away from it was, those of us who are super-rappers already, this is gonna make us want to step up our songwriting game, and those of us who are songwriters, this is gonna make us wanna step our raps up. If you listen to that tape, you have Joseph who is able to write a hook like “Colbert” and then out-rapping Mick Jenkins on “No Vest.” I remember hearing that and thinking “Why is Joseph first?” I kept running it back to the beginning because that verse was so crazy. That Pivot tape, you’re right. I think it will catch on when they’re able to tour again. Did you go to John Walt Day last year at the Metro? That kind of show on the road, people will really buy into that. And they were on the last episode of Wild’n Out ever!
I love Chilliams. I think the best rappers are funny sometimes, but some people don’t make jokes because they don’t want to seem like a joke. But some of my favorite rappers of the last ten years, like 2 Chainz, 21 Savage, are very funny! Even Supreme Clientele, one of the first things I think of is the line about the booger green Pacer.
The way Joseph structures his raps, he puts the punchline where the setup would traditionally go. You’re always caught unaware by what he’s saying. “Fingers in her mouth like Mr. Socko” is the first line of the song, how do you not laugh at that? It’s a funny-ass image, especially with what he’s attaching it to. That’s one of his strengths as an MC, you never really know where he’s coming from but you know where he’s gonna take you is gonna be dope. He’s somebody else like Sllime who has only gotten better with time. I would argue you could put Joseph and Saba with the best songwriters in rap. They both know structure really well, the ins and outs of production, they do different things but are just as effective at writing catchy and substantive music.
The other thing I appreciate about Joseph’s verses, and you see it at live shows, is the way he paces his flows so that all he has to do is say the bar, extend the mic, and the audience will repeat it. There’s enough space in the beat for him to do that, and that’s out of this world genius level songwriting. Joe is incredible.
Are you doing livestream shows or anything like that lately?
I have a feature at WordPlay on Tuesday remotely, and I have no idea what that’s gonna look like. I’m probably just gonna be rapping into my phone like this for 15 minutes. It’s nothing like performing and being able to get that feedback, I miss that. We just shot a cypher for TIP Fest with Add-2 and Mani Jurdan and others, and I could barely sleep after that because I was so charged up. First time in a long time I had the opportunity to do that. Punchline rappers, like I was at one point, want that gratification from a cypher, “I’m gonna kick a bar, and everybody is gonna go nuts for it, and that’s gonna give me the high to know I’m doing something right.”
Even the responses I’ve got from Rich’s video - shout out to Rich, still finding a way to put on for homies in the middle of a pandemic - have been affirming enough to know I’m going in the direction I need to go.
Way Out - Jean Deaux
DUI - Benjamin Earl Turner
94 Camry Music - Femdot
CLONES - Tierra Whack
Babylon Bounce - CRASHprez, knowsthetime
Yngp - SolarFive, Speedy Calhoun
Hero - Pivot Gang
Papyrus Flows - XVRHLDY
Gwendolynn’s Apprehension - Mick Jenkins
No Grand Agenda - E L U C I D
A Day In A Week In A Year - billy woods, Kenny Segal
Midnight - Greensllime
Pommelhorse - Armand Hammer, Curly Castro
No Pleas Copped - PremRock, Fresh Kils
Sell Coke to White Folks - Tomorrow Kings
Mr. Socko - Joseph Chilliams
Cold As Us - Brittney Carter, Oliv Blu
Doobie Brothers - Zilla Rocca, Ray West, Alaska
Song 33 - Noname
The Secret Life of Blacks - Add-2, Koku Gonza
Old Justice - Ka
Mexican Connect - Navarro